You know, I wonder if this discussion about passivity, powerlessness, and fear is really a result of not feeling worthy of being a part of a romantic (for lack of a better word) relationship. I have been realizing lately in my own life how frequently I am fed the idea that I am _so_lucky_ to have the partner I have, the children I have, the work I have. I’m not lucky. I’ve worked damn hard to get to this place in my life, to build these relationships, to be qualified to pursue work I enjoy. I think this feeling of not being worthy of good things in our lives is very common, especially in girls who feel powerless, who fear being alone, and who choose passivity (which allows them to remain comfortable) over assertiveness (which requires them to stand out from the crowd). Amen, Jill–we are absolutely guilty, in many instances, of not asserting the power we do have, whether that’s by choice or by failure to make the choice. And we are continually fed on this diet of body image expectations which make us doubt ourselves and remind us how unworthy we are.

I can tell myself every day in the mirror that I am fine just the way I am. I can tell every woman I meet that they are lovely exactly the way they are, right now, in their very own beautiful, unique bodies. I can choose not to have a TV (haven’t had one in years). But it doesn’t stop the assault of daily images and suggestions that women have to look just so in order to garner that worthiness we’re all looking for. And it seems that without that recognition of perfection that we subconciously strive for, many women never get to the point where they become comfortable in their own skin. (My husband tells me daily how beautiful I am, but that hasn’t stopped me from wondering if I should lose ten pounds, or eat that last cookie.)

I’m wondering where that affirmation has to come from before we can accept that we are good enough and learn to like ourselves? It’s a question I have been unable to answer. I’m aware that I have to like myself for myself first, but how do you jump start that process in these girls? I worry about all of these wonderful young women out there who may never even be aware that the process exists.

On another note, more related to the discussion on porn at the top of the thread, I recently was on a business trip where I stayed in a hotel that had porn on their pay-per-view channel (but then, which one doesn’t?). I flipped over to the PPV channel to see what the porn was. There was one with a title that suggested it was lesbian porn, which seemed more okay than most of the offerings, but then I realized it was produced by Hustler. (HA! If you’re not laughing, you should be.) I paid for it anyway to see just how bad it was, because I had never seen any mainstream porn that billed itself as “porn for lesbians”. I wasn’t gullible enough to believe that it would actually be what it claimed to be, but even I was shocked–probably like you were with the GGW ads, Heather–at how BAD and incredibly male-directed this porn was. Maybe I shouldn’t have been. It was Hustler, after all. But wow. The soundtrack sounded like women artificially sighing in ecstasy every thirty seconds (perhaps in an effort to convince some guy to LEAVE HER ALONE, she’s already orgasmed, thankyouverymuch). The visuals always involved three women (at least) and ALWAYS required dildos (I suppose to replace the men and to make the average viewer feel involved). Nothing even came close to portraying anything accurate. Long story short, if that’s what girls are seeing, they’ve got seriously messed up ideas about what kind of sex is okay or typical. And while I can’t say any of it shocked me much, I was horrified to realize that it was so superficial and inaccurate and just, well, GROSS. Not only was it inauthentic, it was just SCARY. No wonder girls think porn actresses are throw-aways. They act as if the only thing that matters in these films is the sex. They are impossible to identify with because they’re so stereotypical and single-faceted. I’m aware that this is kind of the point of porn, but if I was a teenage girl watching this stuff, I would feel the way you described, Heather.

I wonder: Does all of this have anything to do with catching them before they’re old enough to doubt their worth? With encouraging positive body images in very young children?

So that’s my dollar’s worth.

I think it’s fear driving this feeling of powerlessness. Obviously in far too many cases women do lack control but too often we’re just not exercising what power we do have. The only solution I’ve been able to come up with is having a strong community to provide support when we do take control and make the decisions that are in line with our wants and needs. So many women, especially from what I see at ST, lack that community though and it can be hard as hell to create it from scratch.

They’re not concerned about women being exploited in porn: not because they don’t think they are, but because many of them feel those women DESERVE to be exploited. They not only often do not care about those women, they despise them: they are their enemy. To them, those women are sluts, slags, whores, throwaways. This is one attitude that scares the holy hell out of me.

I’m guilty of thinking along those lines too. It was the realization that those women are in fact people, leading their own lives and making their own choices that helped me see my own worth. While I didn’t realize it at the time, it was hard for me to truly expect other people to show me respect (and impossible to demand it when I didn’t receive it) when I felt a completely unjustifiable disdain for someone who was not harming me. One of my first feminist acts was to stop hating other women.

It’s interesting though, Heather, in relation to how you were talking about the different reasons that people object to pornography. When I first saw the movie I was a bit disturbed by the scene in which Frank’n'Furter seduces Janet, mostly because I really thought it was so horrible that Brad was not going to be her “first.” I felt all sordid. It didn’t take me long to get over this– I watched it again, reflected on WHY I’d felt so disturbed, and in the long run came out with a much healthier view on concepts like “virginity.” Now when I watch that scene though, I feel disturbed for another reason– because Frank’n'Furter is deceiving Janet, and then cohercing her into sex that she says she doesn’t want. Sure the idea is that she really does want it, but of course, that’s one of the biggest myths of rape culture– that it’s okay to keep harrassing and assaulting a woman, because it’s quite likely that she’ll enjoy it in the end. Looking back on it, I have to wonder if there was an element of that in my original dislike of the scene, but that due to the stupid magazines I’d been reading, this came off as a concern about virginity, rather than a concern about personal bodily autonomy.

Then we saw Rising Sun in the theater. Apparently, Mom’s line in the sand was homocidal erotic asphyxiation. To this day, I’m still impressed that she managed to cover three sets of eyes with just two hands.

Then I came to the US at 13 and noticed that the absolute opposite was the case and I was just amazed. I remember a conversation with my 8th grade science teacher, who’d been to Germany on vacation, and who was just absolutely scandalized when she saw a commercial on German tv that featured a pair of breasts.

I am not sure where I am going with this, because here’s the thing: Aside from a few differences (sex ed is a given, abortion and bc are givens and no one’s going to try and contest that anymore), we have the same damn problems over here. I am not entirely sure how this plays out. You’d think that, growing up with nudity and sexuality being the most normal thing on earth, we’d be able to treat it as such. But apparebntly, we still can’t.

And I wonder if it ties into something else I’ve been noticing - the sense of helplessness/passivity. They keep saying very insistently that porn is a deal-breaker for them, that they *can’t* be in a relationship with someone who uses porn, that they get upset even thinking about it - yet they seem totally unable to *act* as if it’s the deal-breaker they keep saying it is.

It’s as if they see their only options as being to somehow police their partners’ thoughts or behaviour more successfully, or to “compete” more effectively with the women in porn.

Actually holding their partners accountable for their choices, making their own choices, and deciding that if said partner is doing something they find truly unacceptable, they’re going to end the relationship - that isn’t on the menu.

There’s all this insecurity and hate directed at themselves and at the women in porn, but at the same time they’re making excuses for these guys - that maybe it’s some mystic thing about “being a guy” that they can’t understand, they must “need” porn or be “addicted” to it, or it’s because of their excess testosterone.

I mean, they maintain very definitely that their partners have hurt them and it’s all their fault, but (completely leaving aside how justified that is or isn’t), there’s some sort of weird dissociation between that and their ability to act.

Or maybe this is just me trying to analyse on the basis of too little coffee ….

One thought regarding this statement:

“I’m always amazed that older people freaking out about young women giving blow jobs and not getting back don’t bear in mind that giving a blow job means you don’t have to get naked or have a partner see your genitals.”

Based on my experience and the emails I receive from readers/viewers, it seems common for young women to be able to orgasm alone, but not with their partners. They feel too embarrassed to let their guard down and let their partner see them experience arousal and orgasm. Maybe this fear plays a role in the “servicing” trend.