Comments on: http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/ Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:35:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: Heather Corinna http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-325 Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:12:59 +0000 http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-325 Well, for myself I know that a lot of it comes from both covert and very direct, overt messages that this is exactly the case: that I am lesser than other people, that I do have to "earn" these things, etc. Certainly, I also got some messages/treatment that made clear that was NOT the case, but I think the negatives overrode the positives. Not enough that I'm not aware of what this is, and that it's not sensible, but enough that it's all still in there and I operate under these things a lot sometimes. I got the worst kind of those messages very strongly during very formative years: essentially, I came of age feeling like/having it presented to me that being smart and talented was my saving grace, and if I didn't work those things like crazy, I was pretty darn worthless. In my case, too, I think it's the opposite of condeding power to men, at large or interpersonally, because in my formative stuff, sparing one strong exception (my father) a little vulnerability or giving-over all too often meant being exploited. Well, for myself I know that a lot of it comes from both covert and very direct, overt messages that this is exactly the case: that I am lesser than other people, that I do have to “earn” these things, etc. Certainly, I also got some messages/treatment that made clear that was NOT the case, but I think the negatives overrode the positives. Not enough that I’m not aware of what this is, and that it’s not sensible, but enough that it’s all still in there and I operate under these things a lot sometimes.

I got the worst kind of those messages very strongly during very formative years: essentially, I came of age feeling like/having it presented to me that being smart and talented was my saving grace, and if I didn’t work those things like crazy, I was pretty darn worthless.

In my case, too, I think it’s the opposite of condeding power to men, at large or interpersonally, because in my formative stuff, sparing one strong exception (my father) a little vulnerability or giving-over all too often meant being exploited.

]]> by: Jennifer http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-324 Tue, 19 Dec 2006 02:18:53 +0000 http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-324 Oops. And now I see that I missed an earlier post in which you discussed this related to porn. But what about when it's not? Does that change the dynamic any, or is it still the same? And perhaps it's too broad to ask the question regarding whether this is cultivated by the society we live in. Maybe I should have narrowed the question more to something like, "Is this something we can overcome in the society we live in?" I have two little boys, and I wonder daily how I can teach them to grow up to be good, responsible, feminist men that care about society as a whole and not just their place in it. I think answering the question I've asked (if it's even possible) will answer, in large part, the question about how to teach my sons to be good citizens of our world. Oops. And now I see that I missed an earlier post in which you discussed this related to porn. But what about when it’s not? Does that change the dynamic any, or is it still the same? And perhaps it’s too broad to ask the question regarding whether this is cultivated by the society we live in. Maybe I should have narrowed the question more to something like, “Is this something we can overcome in the society we live in?” I have two little boys, and I wonder daily how I can teach them to grow up to be good, responsible, feminist men that care about society as a whole and not just their place in it. I think answering the question I’ve asked (if it’s even possible) will answer, in large part, the question about how to teach my sons to be good citizens of our world.

]]> by: Jennifer http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-323 Tue, 19 Dec 2006 02:05:25 +0000 http://www.femmerotic.com/journal/2006/12/18/ballad-of-an-overachiever/#comment-323 Heather: (hello to you, too! ) A comment from your latest post reminded me of that discussion earlier regarding why girls say yes before they're ready/don't say no when they want to/etc: "The part of me that often still believes she’s just not good enough for anything, and that she has to work harder, longer, do better than anyone else just to earn her right to live in this world and at a marginal level of peace and comfort finds a easy soil in which to seed in work. " Why do you think we do this to ourselves? Have you got any answers? I'm wondering, too, if Lioness has thought about this and come up with any conclusions. It just feels to me like this is our motivation for everything we as women do sometimes--it's an effort to earn favor, to be deserving of all we have, to gain the respect of the people we live and work with by diminishing our selves and our contributions. I recognize that I put myself last in line in so many respects. In my professional position, I see clearly on a daily basis the way men use styles that women wouldn't consider using to do the same job. I see women concede their power to men to make peace or because they feel they haven't got as much experience, when in fact, the exact opposite may be true. If women don't concede their power, there are so many names that are used to describe them. "Bitch", "shrew", "nag", and so many others come to mind. In my home, I see the ways that I step away from conflict or accept the words of my spouse as gospel, when in fact, they are nothing more than mere opinion. And I wonder: are we programmed from birth? Or is this something cultivated by the society we live in? And how do we teach our daughters NOT to be this way? It's at least worth pondering.... Heather:

(hello to you, too! )

A comment from your latest post reminded me of that discussion earlier regarding why girls say yes before they’re ready/don’t say no when they want to/etc:

“The part of me that often still believes she’s just not good enough for anything, and that she has to work harder, longer, do better than anyone else just to earn her right to live in this world and at a marginal level of peace and comfort finds a easy soil in which to seed in work. ”

Why do you think we do this to ourselves? Have you got any answers? I’m wondering, too, if Lioness has thought about this and come up with any conclusions. It just feels to me like this is our motivation for everything we as women do sometimes–it’s an effort to earn favor, to be deserving of all we have, to gain the respect of the people we live and work with by diminishing our selves and our contributions. I recognize that I put myself last in line in so many respects. In my professional position, I see clearly on a daily basis the way men use styles that women wouldn’t consider using to do the same job. I see women concede their power to men to make peace or because they feel they haven’t got as much experience, when in fact, the exact opposite may be true. If women don’t concede their power, there are so many names that are used to describe them. “Bitch”, “shrew”, “nag”, and so many others come to mind. In my home, I see the ways that I step away from conflict or accept the words of my spouse as gospel, when in fact, they are nothing more than mere opinion. And I wonder: are we programmed from birth? Or is this something cultivated by the society we live in? And how do we teach our daughters NOT to be this way?

It’s at least worth pondering….

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